【中英文独家连载】罗宾博士看陕西之： 蓝田县与白鹿原
中国出版集团、中译出版社“外国人写作中国计划”丛书之中、英文版《罗宾博士看陕西》
胡宗锋和（英）罗宾·吉尔班克中、英文版《罗宾博士看陕西》在第二十四届国际图书博览会上发布
Shaanxi Through Dr. Robin’s Eyes
罗宾博士看陕西
Blue Field: Lantian Countyand the White DeerPlain
蓝田县与白鹿原
（英）罗宾·吉尔班克 胡宗锋 译
Lan tianrunuang yu sheng yan.
Inmoonlit pearls see tears in mermaid’seyes
From sunburntjade in Blue Field letsmoke rise
“Theair above Lantian shimmers from the jade hiddenwithin its hills.”
沧海月明珠有泪
蓝田日暖玉生烟
——（唐）李商隐
LiShangyin’s (813-56 AD) description of LantianCounty is, to my mind, one of themost piquant meters of poetry to have come outof Tang Dynasty Chang’an. Hiscontemporaries concerned themselves with therevelry of the capital, militarymatters, and the longing for home. Not he. Thebard Li’s muse was found amongthe mountains and he fancied that the richmineralogical deposits of the areacould enunciate their presence even throughthe coverage of terra firma.
李商隐诗中对蓝田的描述，在我看来是唐代长安最活泼的诗句。与他同时代的诗人描写的都是首都的欢宴、军事题材或思乡情，他不是这样。诗人李商隐的沉思在大山里，他想象着当地丰富的矿物资源甚至可以穿过地表的覆盖而昭示自己的存在。
在“陈忠实散文翻译研讨会”上陈忠实先生为罗宾博士签名
Thehills of Lantian are not in fact haloed with thesheen of semi-precious stones.Tearing up the Hushan Expressway as it outpaces thesluggish Ba River, motoristsare not spontaneously overpowered by a glareredolent of the alien landings inthe Spielberg movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind.Nonetheless, in more sensesthan one, the fame of the county rests upon whatlies beneath. In 1963, theunearthing of the remains of two female specimens ofa subspecies of the Homo erectus at ChenjiaowoandGongwangling, dating back at least half-a-million years,[1]wrestedfrom Banpo the laurels of being the earliest settled region of Shaanxi.TheShaanxi History Museum houses the original mandible and cranium, butaninconspicuous local exhibition hall commemorates the Paleolithic ladies closetothe spot where one of them was disinterred. Their hand tools andlithicfragments are clad in Perspex, and placards proclaim the significance ofwhatis known as Homo erectus Lantianensisin Latin to the whole ofmankind.
蓝田的大山实际上并没有玉石的光环。踏上沪陕高速，超越缓缓的灞河水流，汽车司机并不会自然而然的像斯皮尔伯格导演的《第三类接触》中的场景一样，来到一个光怪陆离的外星人芳草地。但不管怎样，不论从哪方面讲，蓝田的声誉来自于地下。1963年，在陈家窝村和公王岭出土的两具蓝田猿人女性化石至少有50万年的历史，这夺走了半坡是陕西人类最早的定居区的桂冠。发现的蓝田猿人下颌骨和头盖骨保存在陕西历史博物馆里，但在靠近化石被发掘的地方，有一个不起眼的展厅，纪念这位旧石器时代的女人。她们用的工具和岩屑都被放在玻璃罩里，旁边的解释就是著名的被用拉丁文命名的“直立人蓝田亚种”对人类的意义。
LiShangyin had no means of knowing of the ape-likeforebears whose remains werelying beneath those shimmering hills. He was aware,and proud, of the reputationof the county for producing semi-preciousminerals. Relying on the public bus,one can swing into the heart of the jadedistrict from the city within aboutninety minutes. Every glazed-door shopstocks largely the same range ofbracelets and bi (decorative pierced disks), so this is notexactly the place tohaggle for whopping discounts on jewellery. Having saidthat, there are thosefor whom the experience of trekking to Shaanxi and beingable to boast aboutfrequenting the shimmering hills probably matters more thanthe business ofshopping per se. The one occasion Ivisited there,our lunch was interrupted by the antics of a family from Jiangsuwho chompedaway noisily at their carp and insisted on scraping jade banglesagainst theglass on their lazy Susan to demonstrate its authenticity.
李商隐无意去打听化石被埋在闪烁着光环的大山地下的猿人祖先，他知道且引以为豪的是蓝田产玉的美名。坐公交车，不到九十分钟，就可以从西安城赶到产蓝田玉的中心地带。每一家门面铮亮的店铺陈列的是大致相同的手镯和璧（装饰性的镂空盘），所以这里不是买首饰砍价的地方。既然如此，对于那些跋涉到陕西，吹嘘见过大山玉生烟的人来说，这件事本身就比买玉还重要。有一次我去那儿，午饭被一家江苏人打扰得没法吃。他们用牙咯吱咯吱的咬玉饰，并坚持用手镯划餐桌上的玻璃转盘，向人展示自己的买的玉是真的。
How wechoose to talk about jade forms one major areaof cultural misunderstandingbetween Chinese people and folk from Westerncountries. In the West the categoryof “jade” is said to encompass just twominerals – nephrite (known in Chinese as“hard jade” and jadeite (known inChinese as “soft jade”). The dozens of otherdifferent materials containing theChinese character yu intheir namesare perceived to be “false jades” or stones, which whilepossessingcharacteristics of hardness and opacity, do not warrant that generictitle.Lantian jade measures 2 to 6 on the Moh’s Scale. It is composed ofaround50.75% calcite and 49.25% antigorite, together with trace elements oftalc. Thestone can be further subdivided into five categories: white marble,light beigemarble serpentine, yellow ophicalcite, apple-colouredophicalcite,and banded flash petrochemical ophicalcite. The toughness of thesurface and itsresistance to wear makes it suitable for use as drinking oreating vessels,massage balls and ink-stones as well as for being carved intodecorativeartefacts. The Shaanxi History Museum houses 125 jade articles ofmostlyutilitarian use ascribed to the Shenmu Shimao Longshan culture of c.2000 BC.
说到选玉和谈玉，中国人和西方人在这方面有很大的文化误读。在西方，据说玉只有两种，那就是软玉（而中国人叫硬玉），另一种就是硬玉（翡翠）（而中国人叫软玉）。其它十几种带有汉语“玉”字的矿石都被认为是“假玉”，虽然硬度和透明度有玉的特征，但还不能称之为玉。蓝田玉的摩氏硬度为2-6度，含有大约50.75% 方解石和49.25% 叶蛇纹石以及云母一样的微量元素。蓝田玉细分为五类：第一种为白色大理岩；第二种为浅米黄色蛇纹石大理岩；第三种为黄色蛇纹石大理岩；第四种为苹果色蛇纹石大理岩；第五种为条带状透闪石化蛇纹大理岩。蓝田玉表面的韧度和经久耐磨使其成为制作吃喝用品、健身球、砚台以及雕刻其它艺术品的上等材料。陕西历史博物馆里收藏有125件蓝田玉器，大多为日常用品，属于2000多年前的神木石峁龙山文化。
Legendhas it that Lantian jade found favour with YangGuifei the leading concubine ofthe Tang Emperor Xuanzong, a not unfeasibleprospect since the couple spent muchof their time at leisure in the vicinityof the nearby Huaqing Hot Springs. Ms.Yang would bathe her face in water thathad been soaked in or come into contactwith “ice lotus jade,” believing it topossess properties which would keep hercomplexion flawless and fresh. The mainrationale behind this is that since themineral has been inundated in situ byspring waters it may have anti-bacterial,anti-inflammatory and skin whiteningeffects. Many women throughout history, andeven to the present day, emulateher habits in the toilette. References to themining of the stone long predateeven this. The Book of Han: DilizhirecordsLantian jade being mined at Jingbei Lantian Mountain (京北（今西安北）蓝田山). It is purported thatthe legendary He Family Jade (和氏碧)featured in Classical works such as the sayings of MasterHan Fei (Hanfeizi)in which it is used as a bargaining chip to negotiatethe secession of fifteencities, was an outstanding example of Lantian jade.Although more likely to be"ordinary jade" rather than somethingexceptional, current geologicalsurveys estimate that 100 million cubic metresof the mineral are yet to beexcavated locally, mainly around Yuchuan Townshipand Red Gate Temple Township.
据说，唐玄宗最喜爱的妃子杨贵妃对蓝田玉爱有独钟，这不是没有可能，因为这二人的许多缠绵时光就是在附近的华清池消磨的。杨贵妃总是用玉泡的水洗脸，或者是佩戴“冰花芙蓉玉”，相信蓝田玉可以使她的肌肤娇嫩。但其原理在于蓝田玉是一种被温泉沁泡的矿石，有抗菌、消炎和美肤的作用。在历史上有很多女人，甚至在今天还有人在梳妆台前模仿她的这一习惯。有关蓝田玉的开采资料更早，在《汉书﹒地理志》中就有美玉“产自京北蓝田山”（京北就是今西安北）、“蓝田，山出美玉”的记载。据传说，古典作品如《韩非子》中提到的“和氏璧”，曾经是交换十五座城池的砝码，就是蓝田玉中的极品。虽然蓝田玉可能就是“普通的玉”，而非稀世宝贝，据现在的地质勘查当地蓝田玉的储量约为1100万立方米，主要分布在玉川镇和红门寺镇附近。
Onreflection, Lantian is not an eastern hinterland,but a region wrought withreligious, topographical, geological and mythicalsignificances. The ShuiluNunnery houses lugubrious ranks of demons fashionedcenturies ago from wirearmature fleshed out in clay. As flash photography isforbidden the visitor hasa doubly terrifying experience. The shrines are sodim that the attendants ofthe underworld lurk as goblins which gaze at ournavels. Secondly, going homewithout photos forces us to reconstruct frommemory what we have seen. Our headsare thus filled with the kind of darkimages which normally only float out ofthe unconscious mind during nightmares.
斟酌起来，蓝田并非东方的一个穷乡僻壤，而是一个把宗教、神话、地貌和地质特色糅合到了一起的地方。那里的水陆庵里，有几个世纪前的壁塑，通过佛祖的生死过程来教化人的思想，帮助人们摆脱苦难。由于禁止游客使用闪关灯拍照，里面就让人感到更加恐惧。神龛都比较暗，下届的侍从就好像是小妖怪望着我们。另外，回去后没有照片，我们只能靠记忆来回想所看到的一切，所以脑海里闪现的尽是噩梦中无意识出现的暗影。
Thescenery of the county is among the most lush to beencountered anywhere inNorthwest China. This much was recognized by the TangDynasty poet Wang Wei, whochose to locate his villa here in Wang Chuan,producing paintings combiningwatercolour images of his surroundings withself-penned poems in his owndistinctive hand. Spots such as the Whale Creekform the natural habitat fordecidedly peculiar wildlife species. The giantsalamander, with its outsizedhead, pinched shoulders and pelvis, and Shar Pei-likewrinkles is known toalmost everyone in the Chinese countryside. In times ofdearth its flesh hasbeen harvested (illegally) as food, though the common nameof the creature iswhat makes it especially intriguing. Wawa yu (literally “babyfish”) is utterly misleading when renderedinto English. “Baby” refers not toits size, but the fact that rather like atoad it will emit an unearthly shriekwhen injured or subject to distress. Asomewhat willful reading of Sima Qian’s Recordsofthe Grand Historian could potentially point to a now forgottenformerusage for the giant salamander in China. Chapter 6 of that work refers tothetomb of the First Emperor being sealed, with the only source of illuminationcomingfrom lamps filled with the oil of the “man-faced fish.” Theoverwhelminglikelihood is that this means “whale oil,” though there is a partof me whichremains curious as to whether the Qin at some stage relied on thefat of thislocal eccentric beast as a fuel.
蓝田县的景色在西北地区是最苍翠繁茂的，这得到了唐代诗人王维的认可。他在这里的辋川建了别墅，在这里创作，把自己亲手创作的与周围环境相关的水彩画和诗融合在一起。而像鲸鱼沟这样的景点则是珍稀野生动植物的自然栖息地。头部硕大的大鲵，身体前部扁平，尾部侧扁，身上有沙皮狗一样的皱纹乃中国乡下人都知道的东西。在不够吃的时候，人们会（违法）捕它充饥。让其神秘的是它的俗名，叫娃娃鱼。用英文讲有些误会，“娃娃”指的不是大小像娃娃，而是它在受伤或是有难的时候，就会像蟾蜍一样发出怪异的叫声。司马迁《史记》中的话潜在的说出了娃娃鱼在中国被人们忘记了的一种用法。在《史记》卷六的秦始皇本纪中说，在其墓被封上的时候墓内“以人鱼膏为烛”。那极有可能指的是用“鲸鱼油”，但我依旧好奇的是，当年的秦人用的燃料是不是当地这种怪兽的脂肪。
Lantianis now synonymous with leisure and recreation,two things to be had in abundancein among its verdant hills. The Tangyu Springand Spa are choked with Xi’anesepleasure-seekers on every holiday from May Dayto the Golden Week in October.The various pools, some of which have been inuse since the 1300s are fed bynatural sources originating approximately 2000metres or more below the WeiBasin. They reach the surface with a temperatureof around 50 degrees Celsius,allowing those taking a dip to be warmed a littleabove normal blood temperaturewithout being boiled. Further health enhancingeffects can be sought frominfusions or preparations of locally-growningredients, including ganoderma, keyto the repertoire of traditional Chinesemedicine.
如今的蓝田是休闲和娱乐的同义词，其山里有两大丰富资源。从五一到十月的黄金周，每个假日汤峪温泉就挤满了来此休闲和水疗的西安人。汤池各式各样，有的早在1300年前就有了。其中的温泉水来自渭河盆地地下2000多米的深处，涌出地面的水温大约在50摄氏度，高出一般的血温，人泡进去有一点热，但却不会把人烫伤。要想更有利益健康，那就要加东西或当地生长的草药，如中药里贵重的灵芝。
As isexplored in the late Chen Zhongshi’s masterwork White Deer Plain,Lantian was not alwaysso sedate, participating in the revolutionary ferment ofthe early twentiethcentury by being the first place in Shaanxi to establish alocal branch of theChinese Communist Party. Mr. Chen portrays that as acritical, if necessarybreak with the past for the county had two other claimsto fame which tied itto the old order of the Qing Dynasty. First of all,Lantian was renowned as abreeding ground for cooks enlisted to serve in theimperial kitchen.Specifically, these gourmets had a reputation for being orderto whip up themost exquisite delicacies employing humble or multifarious ingredientsin a waywhich put cosmopolitan chefs to shame. Secondly, Lantian earned theChineseepithet Juxianfang. On the one hand this alludes to the readiness withwhichthe soils of the area nourish medicinal ganoderma. On the other meansa“gathering of scholars,” this being the county of origin ofnumerousNeo-Confucianists who contributed to the development of Guanxue (theGuanzhong School of Philosophy)
本文作者和译者参加陈忠实先生悼念仪式
在已故作家陈忠实的《白鹿原》里， 蓝田并不总是风平浪静的。这里的人参加了二十世纪初的革命，是陕西最早建立共产党地方支部的地方。陈忠实先生的描述是有批判性的，要是说与过去决裂，这个县还有两项与清代的旧俗相关而出名的事。首先，蓝田是出过宫廷大厨的“厨师之乡”，这里的美食家特别出名的是善于用普通的材料或多种佐料烹饪精致的菜肴，其技艺足以让世界名厨感到自愧不如。其次，蓝田有“聚仙坊”的美誉，这一方面指的是蓝田的土壤盛产药用灵芝；另一方面指“聚贤”。这个县出了许多对关学有贡献的新儒家学者。
Ratherlike Zhang Zai (1020-77) in Mei County, Baoji,it is not uncommon for even thelowliest of Lantian folk to have heard of, orspeak with pride, of theillustrious Lü brothers who lived in the same century.One of them Lü Dalin, infact married a niece of Master Zhang, strengtheningthe Shaanxi guanxi. Five ofthe six sons of that family passed the imperialentrance examination as jinshi andwereknown as the Lantian Lü, amonicker which bespeaks both theadulation in which they were held and thecentrality of local identity in theapplication of their philosophy. Inpolitical terms Lü Dafang (1027-97) faredthe best, rising to become assistantdirector of the right in the Department ofState Affairs. To all intents andpurposes, he was the prime minister of theSouthern Song Empire. Anotherbrother Lü Dajun is closely associated with theimplementation of the conceptsof xiangyue and xiangyi. Observing that magnatessuch as himself were oftenworking within a broken system in which the nationalgovernment cared littlefor order at a grassroots level, xiangyuesoughtto impose a social contract between villagers whereby they would aidtheirneighbours during times of want and respect mutual obligation at othertimes. Xiangyi touchesupon the ritesand rituals held upon special occasions, though also encompassesthe etiquetteswhich citizens uphold in their everyday life.
像宝鸡眉县的张载一样，和其生活在同一个世纪的蓝田“吕氏四贤”是人人皆知并应以为豪的人。实际上，“吕氏四贤”之一的吕大临娶得是张载的侄女，这就更加深了他们之间的关系。吕家六子五人通过科举成为进士，“蓝田吕氏”的美誉就证明了人们对其的赞扬和对其礼学思想在当地的推崇。从政治上讲，吕大防（1027年—1097年）最为有名，他官至尚书左仆射兼门下省侍郎，实际上他是北宋皇帝的宰辅。他的弟弟吕大钧则是和《吕氏乡约》与《乡义》的提出和笃行连在一起。吕大钧注意到自己所任职的政府制度有缺陷，对草根阶层少管教，他的《乡约》是中国历史上第一部成文的村规民约，提出同约人要“德业相劝”、“过失相规”、“礼俗相交”、“患难相恤”。而《乡义》讲的是重大场合的礼仪，当然也包括人们日常生活中的规矩。
Thebroader philosophical context in which the Lüsoperated cannot be sketched outjudiciously in this short space. Suffice tosay, those familiar with thecultural conservatism of Guanzhong should be ableto discern the canniness withwhich Lü Dalin understood the values of thosearound him and was able to adaptthem to political ends. He was regarded as thefather of archaeology in China.The founder of Xi’an Forest of Stone Stele is LüDa Zhong,who moved Stone-baseClassics onFilial Piety, Kai Cheng Stone Classics, and theThirteen Stone Classicsto the southern part within the city wall forprotection during the time whenhe was the vice director of the department oftransportation in Shaanxi, hence the embryo of the Xi’an Forest ofStele.
“吕氏四贤”在哲学上的广泛研究这里无法简而述之。要说的是，那些熟悉关中保守文化的人能看清吕大临的精明，他能“随时识事”，并“论道于朝”，还被认为是“中国的考古之父”。陕西碑林博物馆的创始人则是“吕氏四贤”的吕大忠，在任陕西转运副使期间，将《石台孝经》 《开成石经》 和《十三经》等碑石移至城墙内南侧，统一保管，这才形成了西安碑林的最早雏形。
Neo-Confucianismhad a deep foothold in theintellectual life of Lantian. Arguably it reached itsapotheosis in the figureof the educator Niu Zhaolian (1867-1937), who looms asan almost sufi-likepresence over the period when the Old China and its values wereat last beingswept away. He was said to have been possessed of a close-tomystical insight,being able to divine where subterranean water was to be foundand to predict whenthere would be a downpour of rain. His character has beenportrayed in print byboth Chen Zhongshi and Jia Pingwa, but I interviewed hisgreat-grandson and thecustodian of his legacy, Niu Rui, to gain a clearerimpression of the man andhis personal philosophy:-
新儒家在蓝田的根基很深，不可争辩的是，这在教育家牛兆濂(1867-1937)的手里达到了极致。在旧中国及其价值观被扫除的时候，他像苏菲派的教徒一样隐居在蓝田（苏菲派为伊斯兰教神秘主义派别，是对伊斯兰教信仰赋予隐秘奥义、奉行苦行禁欲功修方式的诸多兄弟会组织的统称。也有说“苏菲”一词源自阿拉伯语“赛法”(Safa)，意为“心灵洁静和行为纯正”——译者注）。据说他有先知先觉之妙术，能掐算出何处有地下水，何时有雨。陈忠实和贾平凹对他的形象都有刻画，为了更加清楚的了解牛兆濂及其个性，我访问了他的遗产守护人，他的曾孙，芸阁书院院长、西安市牛兆濂文化研究会秘书长牛锐，（一下简称为问与答）
1. Your ancestor Niu Zhaolian is just one of many scholars to have come out of LantianCounty. Even today in the 21st century people still speak with pride ofthe achievements of Lü brothers during the Northern Song Dynasty.Do you think there is any special quality or circumstance whichmakes Lantian a prime breeding ground for scholars?
问：您的祖辈牛兆濂是蓝田众多的学者之一，甚至在二十一世纪的今天，人们依旧在自豪的谈论北宋时期吕家兄弟的杰出成就，您认为蓝田有何独特的地方成就了这些学者?
答：一方山水养一方人，每个地域都有自己独特的人文历史遗迹和杰出人物，不过像蓝田人文历史深厚、集中的区域，在关中地区并不多见。秦岭、白鹿原、灞河和毗邻长安独特的地理优势，孕育了蓝田这块神奇的土地：115万年前，我们的共同祖先“蓝田猿人”在这里栖息；8000年前，始母华胥氏，在这里将其部落治理成万民敬仰，八方归附的“华胥国”，华夏文明自此开始，一脉相承、延绵不绝。5000年前，黄帝昼寝而梦游华胥古国，而后天下大治，被誉为中华民族第一梦；3000年以来，这里业已成为中国传统文化重要的传承地；中国第一部相约——吕氏乡约、第二敦煌——水陆庵、佛门净土、艺术殿堂、历代文人墨客的膜拜之地——诗佛王维的辋川别业，特别是关学自张载开创以来，其文脉在蓝田始终延续，关学人物辈出，如北宋的蓝田三吕、明代的秦关王之士先生到清末民初的关中大儒牛兆濂等。
2. Briefly, how would you summarize the essenceof Niu Zhaolian’s teaching?
问：简而言之，您怎样来概括牛兆濂思想的精髓？
答：曾祖既是理学家、教育家和社会活动家，又是民间老百姓口口相传的牛才子、牛圣人、牛半仙。这本身在历史上的关中学者身上并不多见。牛兆濂思想是站在学术思想范畴上而言。比如2015年10月《关学文库》（“十二五”国家重点图书出版规划项目）中《牛兆濂集》的整理和出版，并被确立为“传统关学最后一位大儒”。不过，民间流传，带有传奇和神秘色彩的牛才子文化也同样不容忽视。“牛才子活在人们心中”应该是全社会对曾祖最朴素，也是最高的评价。一次，电视剧《白鹿原》制片人赵安先生问：“”牛才子为什么这么有名？看似不经意的一句话，但让我很是震撼。其实，曾祖一生都坚持述而不作，在他平实的文字中，处处体现他不慕名利、关注现实、贴近民生和国家情怀的思想和观念，而且用其行动积极践行着自己的所学、所知和所悟。因此，正是因为他能为当时的社会、为老百姓自觉、自愿地做了很多事，老百姓才会通过各种传奇故事来纪念和传承他和他的精神。所以，牛才子文化是老百姓心中的文化，是和牛兆濂思想遥相呼应的。如果要我总结牛兆濂思想的精髓，那就是“学为好人”的教育思想，“质朴务实”的实践精神，“不慕名利”的赤手节操以及“家国情怀”士大夫精神。
3. Niu is not only spoken of as a teacher and aphilosopher, but as a demigod (半仙) for his reputed powers of divination andprophecy. Do you think that such a title is deserved?
问：牛兆濂不仅是一个哲学家，也被人们尊为是半仙，因为他以能掐会算而有名，您觉得这名副其实吗？
4. Niu has been portrayed in severalfictionalized forms in the works of Shaanxi writers. In Feidu (1993) by Jia Pingwa he is shown as the ancestor of the protagonist’s wife and the author highlights his powers of divination as used to help vanquish the Henanwarlord Liu who besieged Xi’an City in 1926. What are yourfeelings about this depiction?
问：在陕西作家的作品里，对牛兆濂的演绎有几种，如在贾平凹的《废都》里，他被演绎为是主人公妻子的祖先，作者特别提到了牛才子的预言能力，帮助人们在1926年打败了围攻西安的河南军阀刘镇华，您怎样看这种描述？
答：
5. The late Chen Zhongshi also refers to Niu in Bailuyuan,albeit indirectly through the figure of Mr. Zhu, the Neo-Confucianist scholar. Chen goes into far more detail than Jia, even at one stage presenting a striking description of the scholarthrough the eyes of Bai Jiaxuan:
What are your feelings about his depiction in the novel?
问：已故的作家陈忠实在《白鹿原》中，通过新儒家学者朱先生的形象，间接的提到了牛才子，陈忠实比贾平凹刻画的更具体，甚至是以白佳轩的眼光对其进行了描述：“才子的模样普普通通，走路的姿势也普普通通，似乎与传说中那个神乎其神的神童才子无法统一起来.”您怎样看待小说中的这种演绎？
答：小说《白鹿原》中的朱先生，其生活原型就是牛兆濂，白鹿书院的原型就是芸阁书院。陈忠实先生家住在灞桥西蒋村，和牛才子故居隔了一条灞河。陈先生给我说，他是听牛才子的故事长大的。他家中挂的是牛才子写的中堂，天气好的时候，还能遥遥望见牛才子住的地方，这些都深深的刻印在他的心中，融入他的血管中。所以，在创作《白鹿原》时，牛才子是他第一个想到的生活原型，朱先生顺理成章就是第一个人物形象。陈先生坦言，在创作朱先生时，他的压力最大，因为这个人物有生活原型，而且每个老百姓心目中都有一个牛才子、牛圣人和牛半仙。如果写不好，会让老百姓骂的。而且朱先生这个人物是陈先生注入的很大的心血和期望。朱先生虽然着墨不多，但是在小说中他是白嘉轩之外的一条暗线，小说中的高潮梦，都会出现朱先生，而且是带有“寓言”的，是对传统文化的思考和呐喊。有时，我看着曾父的照片，也很是感动。就是这样一个看似普普通通
简简单单的关中学人，其透出中国传统文化所给予的力量和智慧，体现着关学打断骨头连着筋的硬骨头精神，时刻透露着关心百姓疾苦和民族危亡的家国情怀。陈忠实先生有次谈到曾祖不顾高龄要上前线抗日时，很感慨地说如果今天再有侵略者进来，自己都不知道有没有先生的那种勇气赶赴前线。曾祖在《教子语》中留下这样的家训：“第一，先要认得自家是个人。第二，须要认得自家是个中国人。更要认得天生我身不是单为享福，是要做顶天立地的事业呢”。这也是曾祖一辈子的追求吧。
6. In your opinion do you think thatNeoconfucianism has continued relevance to modern society?
问：在您看来，新儒家思想依旧在影响现代社会吗？
答：新儒家思想起源于民国时期，是梁漱溟、熊十力、钱穆、冯友兰等先生倡导的，经牟宗三、徐复观等诸先生的推动，直至今天，依然还有余英时、杜维明等一批学者活跃在思想界。我看过先生们的一些书，给我最大的感动是，他们独立思考的精神和关注现实并力图解决问题的躬行实践之精神。在我去山东泗水县尼山书院交流之际，泗水县就有一个新儒家文化广场，这些大师们的塑像，生平、故事非常传神，有力的传播着历代知识分子的人格魅力和学术精神。现代社会中的家庭教育、学校教育、社会教育以及学术研究精神、走向等，都会受到新儒家思想的影响，更且作用会越来越大。
魏锋专访（微风读书会ID：weifeng279965337)